Apoyando or Tirando?

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Re: Apoyando or Tirando?

Postby avoz » Tue Mar 24, 2009 11:57 am

codmate wrote:
avoz - when using this technique correctly you can actually achieve a sound louder than apoyando.
I think the tone quality is also better.
My teacher barely uses apoyando at all.
He says that if he does, it's only usually for the convenience of stopping the adjacent string.
You can push the string down just as much as with a regular apoyando. You achieve this by pushing the string towards the body of the guitar with the fleshy pad of the right hand finger. Naturally you need fairly short nails for this. Apparently John Williams often uses this type of technique to achieve his great live volume.

My teacher was taught by John Mills (the British guitarist) and is *obsessed* by tone production.
He says that once I've mastered this stroke, there are many more to discover :)


codmate, I fail to see how "you can push the string down just as much as with regular apoyando" with less force and travel of the plucking finger by using the apoyando-minus technique. Of course, if you prefer your own sound and that of your teacher to that produced by Segovia, Presti, Bream, Williams, John Mills and others who use apoyando, nobody can object as we all have different hearing and there will never be a aural-sense 'norm' held by all human beings.
I accompanied a friend to a week-end workshop by John Mills in Yorkshire several years ago, where the latter displayed his very fine Tarrega-Segovia technique and expressed his great admiration of the latter (he later came to Scotland to collect vintage 78 rpm recordings made by Segovia in the 1920's). It is possible John Mills has changed his right-hand technique, but not his admiration of the great players of the mentioned above. It is a pity your teacher cannot contribute to this Forum to provide some missing facts. I have used short nails for approx. 55 years, since Segovia recommended same.
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Re: Apoyando or Tirando?

Postby PaulCroft » Tue Mar 24, 2009 1:53 pm

LFP: I have to say I found that bizarre. You seem to be working on the principle that a musician aiming for a good sound is somehow unable to develop other skills at the same time. It's like a voice coach saying they will start to work on the quality of a student's tone once they can hold their own in a mixed choir, etc etc.
I think most of us would, quite reasonably, contend the opposite: that, on any instrument, developing a beautiful tone that can best carry the many shades of musical expression is a pre-requisite . None of the elements that constitute good musicianship are, in any way, mutually exclusive, indeed they are more inter-dependent in my opinion.

Paul Croft.
Last edited by PaulCroft on Tue Mar 24, 2009 4:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Apoyando or Tirando?

Postby codmate » Tue Mar 24, 2009 2:15 pm

avoz wrote:codmate, I fail to see how "you can push the string down just as much as with regular apoyando" with less force and travel of the plucking finger by using the apoyando-minus technique. Of course, if you prefer your own sound and that of your teacher to that produced by Segovia, Presti, Bream, Williams, John Mills and others who use apoyando, nobody can object as we all have different hearing and there will never be a aural-sense 'norm' held by all human beings.
I accompanied a friend to a week-end workshop by John Mills in Yorkshire several years ago, where the latter displayed his very fine Tarrega-Segovia technique and expressed his great admiration of the latter (he later came to Scotland to collect vintage 78 rpm recordings made by Segovia in the 1920's). It is possible John Mills has changed his right-hand technique, but not his admiration of the great players of the mentioned above. It is a pity your teacher cannot contribute to this Forum to provide some missing facts. I have used short nails for approx. 55 years, since Segovia recommended same.


It's certainly not as easy, which is partially why I haven't got the hang of it yet and haven't abandoned the rest stroke as much as my teacher.

You simply push the string directly into the body of the guitar with the fleshy pad (near the nail I think) of the right hand finger, which comes at it at somewhere around a 90 degree angle. You then twist very slightly and kick off towards the bridge. It's very similar to apoyando - you just 'miss' the adjacent string.

I'll ask my techer on Monday regarding your comments about Mills technique. My teacher's technique is ceretainly not Mills' technique alone, and I don't really want to speak any more for him as he has much experience beyond what I know about I'm sure. I'll ask him of a good example of somebody who definitly uses this technique.

I'm sure he's not a member of this forum as I have talked to him about it, and I'm not sure it's the kind of thing he'd be into.

All I can say is that, when I have heard this technique performed, the sound produced is as full and rounded as an apoyando stroke by the same person. When I have performed the technique correctly, I've been very impressed at the sound and volume compared to my own apoyando; however, I do find it difficult to do well for the moment.

I'm not suggesting that anybody should abandon apoyando, I don't intend to - but it's good to investigate all ways of making useful sounds with the instrument isn't it?
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Re: Apoyando or Tirando?

Postby owl » Tue Mar 24, 2009 2:41 pm

inimeany wrote:Codmate: do you have some more information about the technique you describe? I don't understand how you turn your wrist. What direction?


Philip Hii discusses 'push stroke' (which is the technique you are talking about) in his article 'Projection on guitar'
I have reproduced it here

Owl

The Push-Stroke
Most methods are concerned with the first option; that of developing a strong free-stroke. Although there are probably as many opinions on how to achieve this as there are players, I find that what has been called the push-stroke is the most effective in playing loudly and with minimum effort.
2 This technique is not new and it is indeed quite surprising that so little has been written about it.
The push-stroke uses a combination of finger strength and wrist weight. This weight can be likened to the weight of the arm used by pianists. Pianists know that in fortissimo passages, sheer finger strength alone will not suffice. The weight of the arms has to be utilized, and in some extreme cases even the whole body has to be drawn in for additional power.
3 Most guitarists recognize this and advocate playing from the knuckle as a means to increase the power of the stroke. I find that although the knuckle joint does provide an essential component in the leverage system, concentrating the action in the knuckle has certain disadvantages. The most apparent disadvantage is the loss of finger independence resulting from the arc-like motion of the finger during the execution of the stroke
This loss of independence is easy to explain. Start by flexing the i finger, using mainly the knuckle joint. It will be observed that there is an instant tendency in the m and a fingers to follow and move with the i finger, To minimize this tendency of the fingers to move in sympathy with each other, the finger plucking the string should move in an upward circular motion instead of the arc-like path. It is obvious that after the finger has plucked the string, the remaining follow-through of the finger is unnecessary. The trick is to push the string inward just far enough so that it doesn't yield a thin and superficial sound and then to release it immediately. It should be noted that most beginners have a weak and superficial sound because the string is not displaced enough and because there is no wrist weight used.
The active participation of the wrist in the push-stroke means that the right hand has to be slightly elevated. To find this elevation, try the following exercise. Place fingers i, m ,a on the first three strings and the thumb on the fourth string. Let the fingers relax. They should now assume a natural rounded shape. Without altering this natural curvature, raise the hand slightly from the wrist so that the finger-tips are now hovering about half an inch above the strings. Be careful not to raise the wrist in the process.
The plucking motion in a push-stroke can be reduced to four basic parts:
1. Position the finger that is going to pluck the string either over the string or on it in preparation. To do this, straighten the finger slightly and lower the hand, using the wrist as a fulcrum. Remember, these movements are very minute and are imperceptible in fast passages.
2. With a little pressure from the wrist, push the fingertip into the string, keeping the tip-joint firm but not locked. Notice that the pressure is exerted mainly from the wrist. This active use of the wrist is crucial to the stroke. At slower tempos, some bobbing motion in the wrist can result. Do not attempt to resist this motion or try to hold the wrist stiff. The tip joint should not collapse nor be totally rigid. There should be a little amount of give in the tip-joint as the finger pushes into the string. This amount of give will determine the loudness of the sound.
3. With a quick, small movement, release the string by plucking it inward (toward the palm). Take care not to have too much follow-through.
4. Almost simultaneously, move the finger up in a circular motion, repositioning it over the string.
The push-stroke has many advantages over the knuckle-stroke. First, there is great economy of movement because of the minimal follow-through in the finger-tips. Second, there is great consistency of tone because all the strokes originate from the wrist,. Many players believe that unequal strength in the three fingers is the cause of uneven tremolos and arpeggios. I feel strongly that the root cause of unevenness in playing is not due to inequality in finger strength but in trying to execute the strokes with three separate entities (the fingers). By originating all finger movements from one source (wrist weight), problems with unevenness will not arise. Third, there is great independence in the three fingers because of their upward returning motion as opposed to the arc-like motion of the knuckle stroke. This means that fast passages can be performed at loud dynamic levels and sustained for long durations with little fatigue.
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Re: Apoyando or Tirando?

Postby LFP » Wed Mar 25, 2009 10:31 pm

PaulCroft wrote:LFP: I have to say I found that bizarre. You seem to be working on the principle that a musician aiming for a good sound is somehow unable to develop other skills at the same time. It's like a voice coach saying they will start to work on the quality of a student's tone once they can hold their own in a mixed choir, etc etc.
I think most of us would, quite reasonably, contend the opposite: that, on any instrument, developing a beautiful tone that can best carry the many shades of musical expression is a pre-requisite . None of the elements that constitute good musicianship are, in any way, mutually exclusive, indeed they are more inter-dependent in my opinion.

Paul Croft.


No not bizarre to me. The principle I am working to is that a good generalised musical education is important for guitartists. An obsession with one issue is not a good generalised music education. I am amused by your references to singing. Having studied singing for years, having sung in every kind of ensemble, having directed choirs and small ensembles I can say that focus on tone is a non starter. As a singer tone is important but it is consequence not starting point.
In answer to your second paragraph it is the many shades of musical expression which demand various tones not the other way around. Get the gestural sense right. Often the correct tone will automatically follow a good aural image. That is the correct interdependence in my opinion. Related: violinists talk about a violinist's sound but rarely tone why not?

Owl thanks for your post and quote. Can you recommend a youtube vid or similar that may have a good expose of this technique? Thanks.
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Re: Apoyando or Tirando?

Postby PaulCroft » Wed Mar 25, 2009 11:18 pm

Pleased you were amused; I think you managed to imply just the right amount of condescension in your phrase.
You seemed to indicate earlier that you only discuss tone production AFTER every other musical element you could name was in place. Clearly you didn't find that bizarre, otherwise you wouldn't have written it, but in the sense that I felt it implied that the sound being created and listened to was of subsidiary importance, I did. I don't think there is any hierarchy of musical skills but, of course, most of us do choose a particular instrument because we're attracted to it's particular sound. I spent hundreds, perhaps thousands of hours, working on tone/sound production on the flute. Doing that didn't mean I wasn't able to develop other equally important musical skills concurrently and, I imagine, endeared me more to my colleagues than if I'd said:
"I'm doing tone later!" I think most people would have read my comments regarding singers in that context'
I would obviously agree totally with what you say regarding the importance of a well-rounded musical education for guitarists, as much as for any other instrumentalist. I'm not clear as to who was propounding otherwise. If you were simply advising against a single issue obsession then, again, I agree, although not just with regard to tone; on the other hand this thread was about that very topic.... ....

Paul. [quite amused.]
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Re: Apoyando or Tirando?

Postby owl » Fri Mar 27, 2009 12:02 pm

LFP wrote:Owl thanks for your post and quote. Can you recommend a youtube vid or similar that may have a good expose of this technique? Thanks.


My pleasure LFP :mrgreen:
I'm sorry, I rarely watch Youtube or video sites so I don't have any suggestions there :oops:
I'm pretty sure that Scott Kritzer uses this technique... at least sometimes, so some of his vids might show it

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Re: Apoyando or Tirando?

Postby guitaradelic » Sat Mar 28, 2009 6:59 pm

Oh my God! I have to start all over, again. All this time I've been doing it wrong...
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Re: Apoyando or Tirando?

Postby twiddler » Sat Jul 31, 2010 10:52 pm

Hi

first post on this forum...

You requested a video about Tirando and Apoyando. Hopefully that will be of help.

Why it has to be considered as a black and white I do not know. The purpose in technique is to achieve control, so that we as musicians can express ourselves through our instrument. To think in absolutes limits our range of expression. True, learning each technique is important but as musicians we interpret pieces. They are not hard coded rules, merely guidelines for a certain interpretation... something that does have some variance from player to player and indeed instrument to instrument.

After playing a few years and achieving a degree of technical skill, of learning pieces as close to the guidelines as possible with as pure a technique as possible, we each start learning about the spaces between those style guidelines. It's a personal exploration in expression and what makes the difference between a by rote player and one who freely lets his emotion be expressed via his or her insrtument.

While it is good to learn the precise styles, they are but tools in our toolkit... and we are free to create our own tools, pick up new ones...

So, don't get too hung up on rules. Learn the techniques. Master them, and then fill in the blanks.

I hope this helps

Cheers

John
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Re: Apoyando or Tirando?

Postby KeMe » Sun Aug 01, 2010 4:22 am

Hello Twiddler,
Welcome to the Delcamp forum. I would like to invite you to introduce yourself here.
I look forward to your introduction and seeing you around the forum.

Musically yours,
Kay
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Re: Apoyando or Tirando?

Postby terpfan » Sun Aug 01, 2010 5:12 am

twiddler, i hope you are not the guy in the video. that video will not help anyone, except a person who doesn't know the difference between freestroke and rest stoke. if that person goes to major conservatory, teacher will not let him play anything. he would be practicing without the guitar, the basic finger movement.
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Re: Apoyando or Tirando?

Postby AsturiasFan » Sun Aug 01, 2010 3:36 pm

Owl wrote:
Philip Hii wrote:Start by flexing the i finger, using mainly the knuckle joint. It will be observed that there is an instant tendency in the m and a fingers to follow and move with the i finger, To minimize this tendency of the fingers to move in sympathy with each other, the finger plucking the string should move in an upward circular motion instead of the arc-like path.



After experimenting, what Hii meant now seems clear. However, everything below is guessing, which I hope someone can confirm or deny. If I understand correctly, if your wrist has an arch, you are using the wrist to help depress the string significantly downwards and are able to get the string to bounce back up without the finger striking the next string then you are automatically doing the push stroke.

The push stroke is a free stroke technique designed to emulate the rest stroke as much as possible. With significant string depression, the sound will indistinguishable from a loud rest stroke, and the feel will be similar.

Hii's circle is the natural way (you would do it without being told) to get the fingertip out of the way so the string can bounce up after being depressed. The finger tip must move immediately backwards, and then to avoid hitting the lower string must move upwards. So the fingertip traces out part of a very tiny "circle" (just an arc of some sort) from the lowest point of depression to slightly above the string by circling backwards and upwards.

The arc like path that Hii refers to must be the standard backward path of the fingertip into the hand with more conventional free strokes. The big knuckle moves more for the standard arc than the tiny circle, which must be why Hii claims the push stroke reduces sympathetic movement.
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Re: Apoyando or Tirando?

Postby djnik1362 » Mon Aug 30, 2010 6:19 am

a good CG player must play both of them in his/her plays.
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Re: Apoyando or Tirando?

Postby Les Backshall » Mon Aug 30, 2010 12:19 pm

codmate wrote:My teacher has shown me a way of getting a sound just as full and rounded as a rest stroke, but that isn't a rest stroke.


AsturiasFan wrote:The push stroke is a free stroke technique designed to emulate the rest stroke as much as possible. With significant string depression, the sound will indistinguishable from a loud rest stroke, and the feel will be similar.


owl wrote:Philip Hii discusses 'push stroke' (which is the technique you are talking about) in his article 'Projection on guitar'
I have reproduced it here


This article has been used before in discussions about free-stroke v rest-stroke, usually by those who feel the rest-strike is now outmoded, or redundant in the the face of the 'new' push-stroke (FWIW I have no strong views either way). Oddly though, I've never seen the the following sentence from the last section of his article, which discusses insorporating the rest-stroke.

"Although the uses of the rest-stroke are more limited than the free-stroke, the rest-stroke should be used whenever possible because the push-stroke can never be an adequate substitute for the rest-stroke." (Philip Hii)

To omit this, might serve to misrepresent Philip Hii's views and conclusions - at least as they were when he wrote the article.

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Re: Apoyando or Tirando?

Postby PaulCroft » Mon Aug 30, 2010 1:43 pm

Well spotted Les:
The idea, that some seem to have, that a "deep" free-stroke and a full sounding rest-stroke are somehow mutually exclusive is clearly flawed.
It's obviously advantageous - I'd say essential - if one is trying to achieve as broad a palette of sounds as possible, to be able to execute both well.

I'm yet to be convinced that the rest stroke can be exactly replicated by a free stroke, however deep, although there are many times when it's
the only choice if a rest stroke would incorrectly damp other strings.

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